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“I mean, we share one thing in common,” Woodward told Trump. “We are white, privileged. … Do you have any sense that that privilege has isolated you and put you in a cave to some extent, as it put me—and I think a lot of white, privileged people—in a cave? And that we need to step outside of that to understand the anger and pain, especially black people, are experiencing in this country? Can you see -“
“No,” he said sharply. “You really drank the Kool-Aid, didn’t you? Just listen you. Eha. No, I don’t feel it at all.”
The exchange is captured in “Trump Summers,” Woodward’s new audiobook centered on 20 interviews he conducted with Trump for his 2020 book “Rage.” Woodward, an associate editor at the Washington Post, said he was took the unusual step of releasing the audio because it believes it offers new insight into Trump’s worldview. “When you get the voice out there, it’s a totally, totally different experience,” Woodward told The Post. In the Kool-Aid exchange, Trump speaks in a mocking tone with a hint of mockery. At other times it sounds meanderingly repetitive or blazingly defiant.
Yet The Trump Tapes also offer a surprising window into the legendary investigative reporter’s process — a constant focus of both mystique and criticism. At various times, Woodward argued with Trump, sympathized with him and — in one phone call that Woodward’s own wife suggested crossed an ethical line for a journalist — appeared to advise the president on how to manage the pandemic.
Woodward, 79, has written books about US presidents since Nixon. “In my process, I do in-depth interviews with dozens, hundreds of sources,” he said, although all of his interviews with sitting presidents, going back to George W. Bush, have been taped. Still, the veteran interviewer said that in re-listening to his interviews with Trump, he regretted some of his choices.
When Woodward asked Trump in another conversation in June 2020 whether he would refuse to leave the White House if the election was close or contested, Trump declined to comment — a rarity in their conversations — and changed the subject.
“As I listen to this again, I blame myself for not following through on this,” Woodward told The Post.
Listening to “Trump Tapes” can be a jarring experience for audiences accustomed to more polished radio or television news interviews, in which journalists ask carefully crafted questions designed to inform the audience as well as suggest the topic — and then answer to its subjects in the moment by fact-checking, pushing back or drawing attention to shocking comments.
Woodward, however, did not respond clearly to many of Trump’s more startling quotes. (Even when, as he described one conversation in the voiceover that provides a fact-checking overlay throughout the audiobook, he was “absolutely stunned.”) And he didn’t take a confrontational stance – which he says was intentional. Arguing would be counterproductive, he said, for interviews that are designed simply for his own information gathering.
The tapes also show Woodward struggling to get key information out of Trump as the former president veers off on tangents or repeats himself on unrelated issues. Still, Trump often started phone calls at unexpected hours and spoke at length, Woodward told The Post — even as Trump claimed he didn’t have time to sit down with the White House’s top infectious disease expert, Anthony S. Foci.
In one exchange, Woodward stressed about Trump their shared disdain for the Steele dossier, a compilation of memos by a former British intelligence agent suggesting Trump’s ties to Russia.
In early 2017, Trump gleefully tweeted about Woodward calling the dossier a “trash document” during an appearance on “Fox News Sunday,” and Woodward reminded Trump of this in 2019. a conversation. “You tweeted something, ‘thank you,’ and everyone piled on me: How can you say that?! This is a sacred document!“, added the journalist with a touch of sarcasm aimed at his disbelievers.
Woodward told The Post that his previous comments about the dossier may have encouraged Trump to talk to him. But he also believes that Trump was also influenced by Sen. Lindsey O. Graham (R.C.), who assured him that Woodward would not put words in his mouth.
Meanwhile, audio tapes suggest Trump was determined he could win Woodward’s respect by repeatedly referring to his power as a leader with words like “nobody else” or “I’m the only one.”
Woodward’s interviewing style became more confrontational during a conversation in April 2020, amid the growing pandemic crisis — to the point where he appeared to be lecturing Trump. The tapes show the journalist urging Trump to mount a stronger government response.
“If you come out and say, ‘This is full mobilization, this is the Manhattan Project, we’re going to — excuse the expression — balls to the wall,’ that’s what the people want,” Woodward told Trump, at times yelling and interrupting the president to make his case. .
“I’m going to do what you want me to do, which I’m doing,” Trump later responded after hearing Woodward’s case.
“No, no, that’s not…” Woodward said, apparently aware that his comments came across as advocacy, but Trump cut him off.
In his interview with The Post, Woodward admitted that his approach in this conversation was “really unusual for a reporter.” But he had previously spent several weeks talking to top government health experts who said they couldn’t relate to Trump about the severity of the crisis, and he felt compelled to present their list of recommended actions to Trump to made sure the president knew what the experts were saying.
“We were in a different world,” Woodward told The Post, citing the accelerating death toll. “In that case, you have to take the public interest first.”
Although Woodward repeatedly told Trump the recommendations were “based on my reports” and that he was speaking “as a reporter,” after the call his wife, journalist Elsa Walsh, told him it sounded like he was telling the president what to do do.
In July, Woodward again pressed Trump on his plan to deal with the pandemic. “You will see the plan. Bob — I have 106 days. That’s a long time.” Referring to the 106 days until the election, Trump appeared to be looking at questions of the crisis through the lens of his re-election bid. In her voiceover, Woodward noted, “I didn’t know what to say.”
In the audiobook, Woodward also revisits an interview that has previously generated criticism of his reporting methods.
When Rage came out in September 2020, some readers were shocked by Woodward’s revelation that Trump – who has spent months downplaying the threat of the coronavirus – had told the author in February of that year that the coronavirus was far more deadly from the flu.
Woodward found himself on the defensive from critics who asked him why he didn’t release that interview as soon as it happened — along with a later interview in which Trump said he was downplaying the virus “because I don’t want to create panic.”
The writer explained at the time that he was aware that Trump had often told falsehoods during their interviews and that it took months of additional reporting for him to confirm Trump’s comments about the coronavirus and perceive their relevance.
The Trump Tapes makes Woodward’s journey as a reporter clearer with its chronological presentation. When Trump told him that covid was deadlier than the flu, both men spoke of it as a problem mostly confined to China. But in May and June, several senior officials told Woodward that they warned Trump as early as January that the coronavirus would be the biggest national security threat the president would ever face.
Woodward says it wasn’t until he saw the conversation in February in retrospect that he decided “what it shows is the cover-up.”
On Friday, after news of the project broke, Trump told Fox News host Brian Kilmeade that he had no objection to the content of audiobook, but hinted vaguely that he might try to claim rights to the project, claiming that he had not agreed to their release and that “the tapes belong to me”. Woodward said he did not inform Trump of the closely guarded plan to release their interviews in audiobook form and said he did not need to “because everything is on the record.”
For both Woodward and his publisher Simon & Schuster, the audiobook is something of an experiment. It is unusual for a journalist to make hard reporting so public. And while research materials and interview transcripts often find hospitable homes in library archives, “The Trump Tapes” also aims to be a commercial product.
will it sell Interest in Trump books remains high; “Confidence Man,” the new biography of the former president by New York Times journalist Maggie Haberman, debuted at the top of bestseller lists this month. And if “Trump Tapes” is a success, other journalists may consider releasing their tapes, said Chris Lynch, president of Simon & Schuster’s audio division. On Monday, a day before its official release, it was already number 1 in sales on the Audible platform.
“Because I’ve heard it and I think it’s fascinating to listen to, I think there’s going to be a market for anyone who’s interested in politics, history and Trump in particular,” Lynch said, adding that insight into Woodward’s techniques could also to make an audiobook useful for journalism educators.
But The Trump Tape raises another question: Does it demystify Woodward’s reporting process or reveal too much of his tactics? If so, what does this mean for his future reporting projects?
Woodward said he could still write another presidential book, but “I’m just not sure.” However, he wants to write a book about the process of reporting stories.
“It’s a never-ending process,” he said, “learning to report.”
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