Announcer:
You are with Raf Epstein on ABC Radio Melbourne.
Raf Epstein:
Coming up, the only place in the country where you will hear someone from the ABC talk about the way Stan Grant was treated. He was on TV for less than an hour. There were eight hours of coverage of the King’s coronation. Stan Grant was invited onto that broadcast for less than an hour, and then the attacks began from the trolls, but also from some in the mainstream media. It was after those attacks and after he decided to step away from the Q&A. His last show is tonight. Stan Grant wrote on Friday that no one at the ABC had uttered one word of public support and that no ABC executive had publicly refuted the lies written or spoken about him. Now, after Stan Grant stepped away, the head of ABC News, Justin Stevens, did defend him, but it was online. It was a statement. Justin Stevens is going to join us in a moment to talk about that.
My boss of bosses, the Managing Director, David Anderson, who really runs everything here at the ABC, he, too, said the racist abuse was sickening. He, too, pointed to the anti-ABC reporting from some media outlets that the Managing Director described as sustained and vitriolic reporting. But it was only in an email, and it only came after Stan Grant stepped away. Even today, you could hear people attacking the ABC, accusing Stan Grant of being racist for some of the terms he uses, saying Stan Grant is too much of a public victim. So where does this leave every other person of color or from any diverse background who’s thinking about coming to the ABC, and what about all of those people inside the ABC? If this can happen to Stan Grant, will it happen to them? Let’s find out what the Head of News in this organisation has to say about all of that.
Announcer:
Raf Epstein on ABC Radio Melbourne.
Raf Epstein:
To give Justin Stevens his full title, he’s the Director of News Analysis and Investigations. Good afternoon.
Justin Stevens:
Hi, Raf.
Raf Epstein:
Why’d it take so long for the ABC to come out and defend Stan Grant?
Justin Stevens:
Look, Raf, and one reason I’m here right now and I said yes to your interview is that clearly, Stan felt let down by the fact that I wasn’t out there and the ABC wasn’t out there publicly defending him over recent weeks. I personally apologized to him. The Managing Director apologized yesterday, and me personally, I feel devastated that he feels let down by us, because we care deeply about him. He’s an incredible journalist and broadcaster.
As you said in your introduction, we invited him on as a guest to take part in our rolling eight-hour coverage of the coronation of King Charles III. He was a reluctant participant. He wasn’t agitating to be a part of that. We invited him, and he graciously accepted that invite. He took part in what was 40 to 45 minutes of eight-hour coverage, where it was the only point in the coverage where we reflected on First Nations perspectives of our history and, secondly, have a broader discussion about what the Crown means to people with different perspectives at this point in time.
This was a different dynamic to the Queen dying last year. No one was mourning. No one had died. This was a moment for us to do what we do as the national broadcaster, which is to facilitate conversations which are at times uncomfortable for viewers and listeners. It’s not our role to shy away from them, and it’s ingrained in our charter to hear a diversity of perspectives.
Now, what happened was clearly, this part of the coverage provoked quite a sizable response from some people in the audience, but secondly, from large sections of the media whom were offended that we even covered this subject at all. The day after the coverage, we started receiving media queries about some of the criticism, and we did actually send quite a lengthy statement-
Raf Epstein:
[inaudible 00:04:28].
Justin Stevens:
… in support of the coverage to media outlets. But what then happened over the course of ten days was just this … to be honest, what’s happened over months to Stan when he’s gone about doing his job, just this complete pile-on, and a pile-on in two sections of the landscape, the first being social media and the second being from other media proprieties. I think there’s a bigger conversation there, because what that reveals is, Raf, the landscape has completely changed for us. Now, it’s not instinctive for me to be here, talking to you, because our instinct at the ABC is to not be the story and to not make the story about ourselves.
Raf Epstein:
Can I check a few different things? So I’m grateful that I can hear the thinking behind the coverage and the ABC’s perspective on the media. Some media’s pushing back. But if I can go back to my initial question, because I asked you how come it took the ABC so long, you spelled out the apology from you and from David Anderson. Was it a mistake for someone like you or someone like David Anderson to choose not to get on a TV show or a radio show on the ABC? Was it a mistake to not get out there and defend the coverage?
Justin Stevens:
I regret not doing this sort of interview ten days ago, Raf. It’s a completely different ballgame now for us. What we’ve got now is sections of the media, particularly in News Limited, who will do anything they can to campaign against the ABC. Now, we can’t be beyond scrutiny. In fact, we welcome it, but it is clearly a concerted campaign to chip away at the ABC and people’s sense of trust in it by them.
Secondly, social media has given a platform to people to air completely toxic, disgusting, often illegal comments about individuals that work for us. It’s a dilemma, and this is a new thing. So last year, for instance, when Tony Armstrong was subjected to vile, racist abuse, with his permission, we publicly called that out, and I put out a statement. Earlier this year, when Lisa Miller off the back of months and months of disgusting trolling that she’s subjected to for doing her job, we also put out a statement.
Now, I regret not putting out a statement directly about Stan in recent days. I’ve personally apologized to him for that, because this racism that he’s been subjected to is not just from the last week or two. It’s been going on relentlessly for months, and it’s something he and I have spoken about previously, to the extent that a couple of months ago … It’s awkward, right? Because you don’t want to draw attention to or give any agency to often anonymous, but often not anonymous, disgusting [inaudible 00:07:25].
Raf Epstein:
Yeah, and you don’t want to throw fuel on the fire. I’m glad you’re calling out News Corporation, because you’re right. They’re chipping away at or they’re trying to chip away at our credibility. But I want to ask you a question.
Justin Stevens:
So at that point in time, I complained to Twitter, which basically went nowhere.
Raf Epstein:
[inaudible 00:07:38] if I can.
Justin Stevens:
Yeah.
Raf Epstein:
Is this going to change? I appreciate you coming on. As someone who believes fundamentally in what we do, I would like to see you and others on our national outlets as well as on this outlet saying things. Is that going to change now, do you think?
Justin Stevens:
Yeah. Well, I’m going to do an interview on PM soon, and I think we’re happy to take any and all questions. The most important thing here … Well, there’s a few important things. The first thing is Stan. We care about him. He’s going to do Q&A tonight, and then he’s taking a break, because he needs one. We’ll give him space to do that and recharge.
The second thing is we need to be able to do the strongest possible impactful journalism for the public, that’s in the public interest. At times, that’s going to be uncomfortable for the public, and at times, it’s going to draw controversy. But that is a key part of our job, not to go after controversy, but instead to tell the story of the nation and reflect the nation back to it. That’s our role and remit, and we need to continue to do that. Now, clearly, we want to have a good look at in this climate, what more can we do to support staff? Stan has called out that he felt we should and could have done more. We want to go about doing all we can in coming weeks and months to support our staff to make sure that they can do their best jobs for the public.
Raf Epstein:
So you might be doing more public statements and interviews in defense of people in the future?
Justin Stevens:
I think we’re going to have to get into the habit, even though it is against our instinct to not be the story, to call this out more often and more regularly. There’s the anonymous trolls. There’s the toxic abusers on social media that go after people because they hate the fact that they exist, let alone what they say. But then there’s also media outlets that play a part in amplifying and giving agency and gratifying these people’s concerns and rallying them and revving them up.
I think Australian media broadly need to have a good, hard look at themselves, at what’s in the public interest, and where are their journalistic efforts best served for the public? If it’s sending multiple questions to the ABC day after day about various things … On the weekend, for instance, we got four to five different dispatchers of questions from media outlets about specific things related to the ABC.
Raf Epstein:
Which outlets?
Justin Stevens:
One of them from The Australian newspaper was because they or someone for them had pored over the personal social media of one of our Indigenous journalists and asked questions about that. That’s the level of scrutiny that they are going for. We need to really question what’s in the public interest and where should those efforts be directed, and there’s a fine difference between scrutiny and pile-on.
Raf Epstein:
Are you’re saying as the Director of News at the ABC that News Corp is fueling the terrible stuff on social media?
Justin Stevens:
I’m saying come after me. I’m the person who’s responsible ultimately for the journalism and the decisions we do. Now, you put an image of one of our high-profile presenters, whether it’s Stan or whether it’s Leigh Sales or David Speers or Tony Armstrong, they know that they will get more people reading their materials by putting a face on it. I’m saying stop going after people for doing their jobs. The other thing about the coverage, which is really important to call out, that caused such a furor, as far as I’ve seen, no one’s been able to cite any inaccuracies in what was discussed or said. So sure, it’s caused controversy, but there is no contentious nature of what was actually discussed.
Raf Epstein:
Justin Stevens is who you’re listening to. I’m grateful that he came on the radio today as the Director of News here at the ABC. So every time you hear a news bulletin, when you look at the ABC News page, Four Corners, Australian Story, Q&A, all of those things, they are all programs that Justin Stevens is in charge of.
Justin Stevens, what about the Indigenous and diverse reporters inside this organization right now? I’m sure they are looking at Stan Grant and his fate and wondering if it can happen to them. Are you worried that other people from diverse backgrounds will walk away because of what’s happened to Stan Grant?
Justin Stevens:
I think they’re clearly shaken by it, because I think they think, “If this happened to Stan, what does it mean for me?” We will be going out of our way to lean in to support our First Nation staff and staff from a culturally and linguistically diverse background. The ABC’s been on a moment of transformation over the past five years to ensure that our workforce better reflects what Australia is today. Now, that’s not tokenism. That’s actually closely tethered to us doing good journalism, because our journalism has to be accurate. If it’s going to be accurate, we need to make sure our workforce reflects the diversity of Australia. They’ve earned their place in the organization, and we need to make sure, like every other workplace in this country, that they’ve got an environment that is warm, welcoming, and safe.
This year is going to be a struggle for anyone who’s First Nations because of the referendum. Clearly, we’re going to be having a conversation as a nation about our history, about the state of affairs for Indigenous people in this country. At times, that will be confronting and uncomfortable, and we will do all we can to support our Indigenous staff through that. They’re not alone, and the burden of positive change doesn’t rest with people from a minority. It rests on all of us, and I’ll do all I can to help them.
Raf Epstein:
Justin Stevens, if a government or a statutory body said, “Oh, we’ve got a problem. We’re going to have a review,” I’d be very cynical and very skeptical. That’s exactly what David Anderson announced on the weekend. Do we need a review to understand what happened with Stan Grant? Don’t we know the problem?
Justin Stevens:
So over the past two to three years especially, the ABC has already put in place a bunch of really positive things to make it a better workplace for staff who are First Nations or culturally and linguistically diverse. I think what we want to do is get someone to have a really good independent look at the processes we’ve got in place and where are we coming up short, and I think any and all constructive observations at this point is appreciated.
The second thing is clearly from Stan’s experience, despite the things that we’ve got in place, we can always do a better job. So it’s an exercise in figuring out what more can we do in a constructive way to make sure our staff feel supported? What I’d also call out, Raf, as I alluded to earlier, there are new dynamics at play in terms of other media piling on our staff individually or what we do with clear agenda. Secondly, social media trolling is such a new phenomenon. We don’t ask our staff to be on social media for their jobs. Clearly, at times, they need to for journal journalism and news-gathering reasons. In the process, they are subjected to horrendous abuse. Now, five, ten years ago, that wasn’t really an issue. So there are clearly new dynamics at play that we need to respond to.
Raf Epstein:
Can white people do that? I’m white.
Justin Stevens:
What do you mean?
Raf Epstein:
Well, genuine question. Can you and David Anderson be in charge of that process, or do you need other leaders in this organization to take over that process?
Justin Stevens:
Oh, look, we’ve got some amazing First Nations leaders and leaders from a culturally diverse background. My deputy, Gavin Fang, has led the charge internally over a decade to try and lead positive change. Suzanne Dredge is the first Indigenous person to sit on the news executive, and I pointed her to my executive last year. I guess my point, Raf, is actually, it is on us. It is on us and not on those who are the victims of toxic, racist abuse from external people. It’s on us to actually make it better for them. It’s not on those who are victims here. So actually, I think the burden of change has too often rested with people who are the victims or represent those who are, and it’s actually on all of us. If we just rely on those who are impacted by this, we won’t get anywhere, and we’ll make it worse for them.
Raf Epstein:
Is Stan Grant coming back? It wasn’t 100% clear what he wrote on Friday. Is he gone from Q&A? He wants to leave forever? Are you going to let him go away and think about it? What’s the precise situation?
Justin Stevens:
So Stan’s presenting Q&A tonight, which is great. He was really keen to do that, and I’m sure he’ll do a great job of it. He is keen for a break. He wants a rest. He wants to spend time with his family and have a breather from this, and totally respect and understand that. We want to give him time to do that. Q&A is due … I think it has a few more episodes after this week, and then it’s got a mid-season break. Then it will return, and we just want to give him space and time to try and have a breather from this. Hopefully he’ll return after the mid-season break, and we just don’t want to put him under any extra pressure at the moment. So we’ll see how it goes.
Raf Epstein:
But the invitation is there for him to return at the moment, and you haven’t received a final answer from him. Is that fair?
Justin Stevens:
Oh, absolutely we’re keen for him to return, and I think ideally, he would like to. But we just want to take it a week at a time and not put him under any extra pressure at the moment. He’s an incredible journalist, and he’s an incredible broadcaster, very unique skills to facilitate conversations in our community that others aren’t equipped to do. We greatly value what he does, and not only that, he’s also, as you know, a great observer of international affairs.
Raf Epstein:
Yes.
Justin Stevens:
He’s one of the greatest foreign correspondents. He’s got a hell of a lot to add to the national conversation, and we want to help get him to a point where he feels that he can do that again for us.
Raf Epstein:
You mentioned someone from news (sic News Corp) trawling through an individual reporter’s social media feed as an example of the sort of thing you would appeal to them to think about the public interest. Do you think that appeal will yield any fruit?
Justin Stevens:
No, but ultimately, I think everyone just needs to pause and figure out what actually benefits the national discourse and conversation. Now, we should always be subjected to scrutiny and criticism. We hold the bar very, very high for institutions, political parties, people in power. We hold a very important place in the national conversation, and we shouldn’t take our role lightly. So therefore, we should be subjected to a great deal of scrutiny. But it should be based on facts, and it shouldn’t be a relentless campaign just because they’re trying to chip away at people’s sense of trust in what we do because we threaten their business model.
Raf Epstein:
Thank you for your time. I appreciate you coming on, and I appreciate having someone from ABC management on the radio station. Thanks a lot.
Justin Stevens:
Thanks for having me.