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“Should I take [the question] first,” suggests Armageddon Time writer-director James Gray to Banks Repeta and Jaylin Webb, “and you guys can think about what it is you feel?” It’s a gentle gesture of support that encapsulates his approach to the production at large. Despite the rigor inherent in Gray’s recreation of his 1980s upbringing in Queens, he’s never overly prescriptive in handling any situation. He creates spaces and structures where his collaborators can experience freedom, just as he did as a young boy at the time.
With Armageddon Time, Gray spins his biography into an American parable on privilege and power. His avatar, Paul Graff (Repeta), a middle-class Jewish middle schooler, learns how the world works after striking up a friendship with Black classmate Johnny Davis (Webb). The two rebellious teenagers navigate New York City with a free-wheeling sense of fun that Gray portrays as simultaneously aspirational and asinine. These carefree adventures stand in contrast to the more morally instructive episodes that Paul shares with his family, including his civically conscious mother, Esther (Anne Hathaway); perpetually striving plumber father, Irving (Jeremy Strong); and worldly immigrant grandfather, Aaron (Anthony Hopkins).
But when adolescent abandon buts up against adult consequences, Paul comes to comprehend the ways in which his identity grants him advantages and opportunities that are unavailable to Johnny. This early awakening to the contradictions inherent in his construction of ideology and identity provides yet another powerful chapter in Gray’s career-spanning exploration of the American dream’s superficiality. Armageddon Time functions like the origin story for his New York stories, from Little Odessa to The Immigrant, the latest and most personal investigation of how individualistic triumphs run up against intractable institutional inertia.
I spoke with Gray, Repeta, and Webb shortly after Armageddon Time’s special 60th anniversary screening at this year’s New York Film Festival. Our conversation ranged from the technical aspects of understanding and representing the 1980s to the more intangible elements of pinpointing one’s sense of process and style.
Does it require a different mindset to inhabit the period of the ’80s? An acting professor once told me the biggest issue that she finds with young actors these days is that they find reacting in the moment tough. If they know they have access to the world through the phone in their pocket, their attention drifts elsewhere.
James Gray: You didn’t do that!
Jaylin Webb: I’ve never done exactly the ’80s. I’ve done the ’70s and ’60s. The way I was directed, it was just a little different. But when it comes to the way I dressed, the way I acted was different. I think this is my first time in this environment and setting. Other projects…I want to describe without spoiling it, but I’m talking about Till…which is just very different.
JG: It’s funny because Anthony Hopkins has a very different way in than the boys do, than Annie does, than Jeremy does. He works from the outside in. The idea is he says, [putting on British accent] “What about that hat? I want to wear that hat! Can I have that tie that you were talking about?” He likes the skin. The costume told him how to behave. As opposed to American actors, these guys probably think about what’s inside, what motivates the character first. You get to the same place, it’s just a different way. That’s all the work you do. What I see is just the work. How they get there is their own thing.
Through elements like costuming and production design, was there some element of that for Banks and Jaylin to work from the outside in?
JG: There’s no question because it’s exactly what you were saying about your dress. It’s weird, you put the right costume on the actor—I think you guys will agree—it does give you something all of a sudden. You feel different in different clothes. My one regret: In 1980, when I was that age, more kids wore sort of identifiable emblems or commercial products. We couldn’t get that stuff cleared! I had a Batman T-shirt, and we couldn’t get Batman cleared. A Coca-Cola T-shirt, we couldn’t get that cleared. But a lot of the bad sweaters were the same, and a lot of that stuff was very accurate from my read. You feel different in different clothing, don’t you? Clothing projects! What they’re wearing now projects a different image of them. What I’m wearing projects differently than if I were wearing bell bottoms and an orange nylon shirt.
Banks Repeta: [opens up blazer to reveal a Sugarhill Gang T-shirt] Projecting the movie!
JG: I love that! I loved Sugarhill Gang as a kid. We had this record player thing the other day in L.A., where we were supposed to play records and talk to the camera. Which, at first, I thought was very silly, but then all of a sudden, I realized they did bring the right records. They brought the Sugarhill Gang record which had a kind of a turquoise-blue sleeve. I think I had that exact record. It was very powerful to me. Items, clothing, all these things do matter in who we are.
BR: One of the main things that really helped both Jaylin and I get into our characters and get a feel for [where] their mindset was at in the 1980s is we listened to the song “Rapper’s Delight” over a hundred times before and during filming.
JG: I remember that bassline just over and over in my head as a kid. [begins beat-boxing the line, actors join in] Bom bom bom…
JW: Adding onto what James said, especially with the clothes that I was wearing as Johnny, I think that really did help me. I just felt like I was in a different position as a character. And it really did help my performance.
JG: It’s your skin. If you see a James Bond movie and see he’s wearing a perfectly pressed suit, it sends a message. It tells you who that character is to some degree. If I walk in here wearing jeans with holes in them, and I have a specific style…well, maybe you think the stylist dressed me. Or, maybe I couldn’t get jeans that didn’t have holes. Maybe jeans are in fashion with holes! All these come into your mind and come into play when you’re judging who the person is at first glance. It’s a great way in.
Banks, playing Paul is playing a version of James himself. Was he a valuable resource to talk to for the character?
BR: James gave me some very basic information, like where he grew up, what it was like living in Queens, and how he had independence. But, besides that, he really wanted to see how I could portray Paul, and then he would tweak it to his liking. He saw the image he wanted to see. It’s kind of an actor’s dream. He gave us the authority to play the part.
Jaylin, the person that Johnny’s based on was not around for you to reference. In the absence of that, how did you approach building the character?
JW: Just also using James for questions and asking my family members because I never experienced what Johnny experienced, fortunately. I asked my family members and people who have experienced it just to find ways to connect with him since I couldn’t actually talk to him.
The 1980s are a different time than what we live in now. Was there anything in particular that you felt you needed a lot of explanation to understand about the period?
BR: There was nothing that I really needed explanation for, but there’s a lot of things that I didn’t know about. Something I found very different from the ’80s versus 2022 is, I think, that in the ’80s there was a lot of independence, which made a lot of the people who they are today…like James. Kids are today aren’t necessarily controlled, but they’re having a bit of hand-holding.
JW: I’ve always been in period pieces, so there wasn’t really much that I needed explanation for. But I can say that it was like I was hopping into a time machine and into ’80s New York. So just being familiar with the environment, the style, the way people acted, I think that really did help with my performance. I don’t think it really required an explanation just because I think I was pretty aware. The production designers and everybody really did help with that.
BR: Oh my gosh, Happy Massee, the production designer, he really gave a feel for the life of Paul and the 1980s. Both Paul and the 1980s play two different characters that are very important.
There’s so much going on around the characters in the time period, from Reagan to the death of disco. When it came to playing these scenes that touch on the culture at large, can you be aware of these things that are bigger than the characters? Or can you only play the reality and knowledge of the moment?
BR: I didn’t know that much about the ’80s. I was new to most of this. I think it’s great that Paul says that disco totally sucks. He’s really trying to spin into the social factor and be Johnny’s friend.
JG: Really terrific actors, and these guys have to ignore the larger forces. Because we’re not cognizant of them for the most part. We are only aware of the moment, the situation. But I don’t want to put words in your mouth.
BR: It’s another reason why the relationship between Johnny and Paul is so special. They don’t let the bigger things in the world define their relationship.
JG: Oh, I love that! I think that’s true. It’s interesting, and it’s a good question, because obviously there’s the intention of that larger idea. But they have to play in the moment. They didn’t live through 1980. Even the adult actors, I never want them to play the larger situation, only the actual moment of what’s happening to them in the world. We’re here, it’s 2022. We don’t know what this period is gonna mean 40 years from now. We don’t have that perspective. It’s an advantage we don’t have. You guys can argue with me if you want, you know.
James, I don’t know if you read Mark Harris’s biography on Mike Nichols, but that book really reframed my understanding of a director’s role as people manager as much as aesthetician. Does it require a different style to direct younger actors than it does someone like Anne Hathaway or Jeremy Strong?
JG: Well, I talk to them very similarly because they’re very smart, these guys. And they’re aware of the details of their job and what it is they’re supposed to do. And, really, the style is the same. I mean, when you’re talking to Annie or Jeremy, the only difference is they have matured their process. These guys are still finding their process. But the language is almost exactly the same. You say, “Here’s the situation. Here’s the way I want you to think about what you’re doing.” They go, “Okay,” and then go off and do it.
BR: Before we started filming, I took a walk with Annie in Central Park. And she asked me this question that I’m still thinking about. She asked me, “What kind of actor are you? What kind of acting style do you have?” And that’s probably one of the biggest things I took away from Armageddon Time. There are billions of different acting styles. That’s what makes it so special. You’re always different as an actor.
How did you answer that question about the kind of actor you are?
JG: Yeah, what did you say to Annie?
BR: I’m still thinking about it. I ended up saying about 10 uhh’s, three umm’s, and I ended on “I don’t know.” I’m still thinking about that. That’s a really great question.
JG: But you don’t have to answer it, right? If you said to me, “James, what’s the directing style you have?”…
BR: …what would you say right now?
JG: I have no idea. You only know your own process. I don’t know other people’s directing process. You have only your soul as the actor. So how can you say what the other person does? You can sort of watch. You know the facts, but it’s not all that’s involved.
You asked about the Nichols thing. When I was young, I thought that movie directing was this dictatorial, fabulous job where you had the bullhorn, the berets, and the jumpers, and you walked around like a big king. But you realize that, actually, the job is very different. You get everybody around you, the actors included. And, of course, the technicians. And you want people who are better at their job than you are at theirs. The idea is: How do you expand what’s there? How do you make it better? So, yes, it’s people management, and it’s also trying to get the best from them.
BR: It’s like you’re the conductor and trying to get the best from all the instruments.
JG: Yeah, that’s exactly right.
Did you, as people, learn any personal lessons that your characters were learning as well? Were you going on a similar journey coming-of-age or learning about the world?
BR: Well, a lot of the problems that were in the 1980s, I didn’t know about. And I know it makes a lot of people feel uncomfortable, but I think it’s acting. I’m just playing Paul Graff.
I have a question for you. Do you think there’s a big difference between playing a character in a movie that actually existed versus playing a character that didn’t exist?
From my perspective of someone watching it? Or from an actor’s perspective?
BR: Someone watching it.
I think there’s a certain texture to playing someone who’s based in reality, even if it is just an image or representation of them. But, at the end of the day, it’s fiction. It’s not a documentary. Do you see it as different?
BR: I basically 100% agree with you. I think, in the end, it’s all a movie.
James, did narrativizing a certain portion of your life unlock anything in you or reframe your own experiences?
JG: First of all, I don’t know the answer, because I’m still here talking about it with you. I’m still hanging out here with them. I’m too close to it. Maybe 10 years from now I will have a more educated answer for you. What I can say is that the movie doesn’t give me any catharsis; it’s not supposed to. If anything, it’s about failure. It’s about letting somebody down. And there’s no “lesson” really learned in that. There’s no lesson learned that you can profit from a situation in which others are harmed. So I don’t know what to take from that yet. It’ll be several years before I can really answer that.
I love how your detailed notes are. [to actors] Look at his notebook!
You never know how people are going to react in a situation, and you have to have all sorts of routes.
JG: I get it! I did a Q&A with this guy David Fear, who’s terrific, and he did an interview with Scorsese about The Last Waltz for Criterion. He shows up, and I said, “You did one of the best interviews with Scorsese I’d seen in decades.” And David Fear says, “Oh yes, thank you so much,” and he’s got a clipboard with all of his questions to ask me and diagrams. I said, “You’re gonna be okay, you’re way beyond it!” He said, “No, I need this. One time I went blank, and I didn’t know what to say.” He’s one of the best, so there you go.
Like you are discovering who you are as actors and as a director, I’m still discovering my interviewing process.
JG: Well, you’ll be doing that for another 60 years, I’m sorry to tell you.
I don’t see a finish line in sight, but I think that’s a good thing. You realize there’s always more to learn.
JG: These guys, they’re in their formative years, but it doesn’t end. I’m 53 now, and I don’t get up and look in the mirror and say, “You’ve got your process, you’ve figured it out.” It doesn’t work like that. So there’s usually a panic that takes over my soul anyway.
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