Noam Chomsky interview: “Ukraine is not a free actor, they are dependent on what the US determines”

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Noam Chomsky interview: “Ukraine is not a free actor, they are dependent on what the US determines”
Noam Chomsky interview: “Ukraine is not a free actor, they are dependent on what the US determines”

At 94, Noam Chomsky is as vocal as ever. In May, the American political commentator and linguist will publish his latest book, Illegitimate power, a collection of interviews with political scientist CJ Polichroniou focused primarily on foreign policy. The interviews cover a period from March 2021 to June 2022, covering in particular the prelude to and the first months of Russia’s invasion of Ukraine.

When I spoke with Chomsky via video call from his home in Arizona, we spent most of our time discussing the war in Ukraine. The conflict marked a time of great upheaval in the international order, which could be thought to test the convictions of Chomsky, whose critical view of US foreign policy gained international prominence during the Vietnam War. His 1967 essay, “The Responsibility of Intellectuals,” published in New York Review of Booksdenounced the American intellectual class for helping to sanitize their government’s actions abroad and the atrocities committed in Vietnam. The war in Ukraine, however, is a very different conflict. This time the US is supporting a sovereign state under attack from an external aggressor. Chomsky also has a family connection to the region: his father was born in what is now Ukraine before immigrating to the United States in 1913.

Yet Chomsky’s worldview leaves no room for Ukrainian agency. “The US and Britain” are the ones who “refused” peace talks in Ukraine, Chomsky tells me, to further their own national interests even as the country is “battered, devastated.” That negotiations with Russia would mean de facto abandoning millions of Ukrainians to the will of an aggressor who has shown himself capable of extreme brutality, such as in Bucha and Izyum, is rejected. “Ukraine is not a free actor; they depend on what the US determines,” he says, adding that the US is supplying Kiev with weapons simply to weaken Russia. “For the US, this is a bargain. For a fraction of the colossal military budget, the US is able to seriously degrade the military forces of its only real military adversary.

According to Chomsky, Russia is acting restrained and moderate. He compared Russia’s style of war to that of the US during the 2003 invasion of Iraq, arguing that the large-scale destruction of infrastructure seen in that conflict “didn’t happen in Ukraine”. He adds: “Undoubtedly Russia can do it, probably with conventional weapons. [Russia] could make Kiev as unlivable as Baghdad was, could turn to attacking supply lines in western Ukraine.

When I asked him to clarify whether he was implying that Russia was fighting more humanely in Ukraine than the US was fighting in Iraq, Chomsky replied: “I’m not implying that, it’s obvious.” Delegations of UN inspectors had to be withdrawn after the invasion of Iraq began, he says, “because the attack was so brutal and extreme… This is the American and British style of war.” Chomsky adds: “Look at the casualties. All I know are the official numbers… the official UN numbers are about 8,000 civilian casualties [in Ukraine]. How many civilian casualties were there when the US and UK invaded Iraq?

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The number of foreign dignitaries who have traveled to Kiev since the outbreak of war is a testament to Russia’s restraint, Chomsky says, in stark contrast to Iraq. “When the US and Britain were smashing Baghdad to pieces, did any foreign leader go to visit Baghdad? No, because when the US and Britain go to war, they go south. They destroy everything: communications, transportation, energy, shock and awe—everything that makes society function.”

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Estimates of civilian deaths from the invasion of Iraq vary widely. An estimate by the Iraq Body Count (IBC) Project, considered one of the most comprehensive databases of Iraq war deaths, puts the total number of civilian casualties at between 186,000 and 210,000 in the 20 years since the 2003 invasion. d., which, according to her, is a likely understatement. Almost 25,000 of those deaths were directly attributable to the US-led coalition and its Iraqi allies. Tens of thousands more are due to anti-government rebels, including Islamic State, according to the IBC. Responsibility for the deaths of more than 100,000 civilians cannot be definitively attributed.

[See also: The West’s narrative on Ukraine hasn’t convinced the rest of the world]

The Office of the United Nations High Commissioner for Human Rights has recorded 8,490 civilians killed and 14,244 wounded in Ukraine since the beginning of the Russian invasion 14 months ago. However, he “believes the actual numbers are significantly higher” due to poor data from areas with high civilian casualties, such as the city of Mariupol in the south. Ukrainian officials estimate that tens of thousands – perhaps as many as 50,000 people – died in Mariupol alone during the Russian siege of the city in 2022.

Sometimes Chomsky’s ideological presuppositions lead him to ignore facts that might contradict his narrative. For example, Sweden and Finland, officially non-aligned for 210 and 73 years respectively, applied to join NATO in May 2022. To most observers, the end of their decade-long neutrality may seem at least indirectly related to the invasion of Ukraine three months later. early. However, Chomsky says that both countries seeking to join NATO have “nothing to do with the fear of a Russian attack that has not even been contemplated.” Claims that Russia could threaten either country amounted to “Western propaganda,” he added. Instead, Chomsky argues that joining NATO gives the two Nordic countries’ military industries “major new market opportunities [and] new access to modern equipment”.

In fact, both countries specifically cited the invasion of Ukraine as the reason behind their bids to join NATO. Moreover, within living memory, Finland fought off attempts by the Soviet Union to conquer and annex the country. The 1939-40 Winter War against the USSR still shapes Finland’s attitude towards Russia. Finland joined NATO on April 4, while Sweden’s application remains on hold over Turkey’s objections.

Asked what form a potential settlement of the war in Ukraine might take, Chomsky said: “First, Ukraine will not be a member of NATO. This is the red line that every Russian leader has insisted on since [the former Russian president Boris] Yeltsin and [the former Soviet president Mikhail] Gorbachev.” He adds: “Ukraine gets the status of, say, Austria during the Cold War or Mexico today. Mexico cannot join a military alliance [hostile to the US]. There is no contract for this, but it is quite obvious.

A peace deal would involve Ukraine offering “some degree of autonomy” to the eastern Donbass region, which is now partially occupied by Russia. “Regarding Crimea [which was illegally annexed in 2014]… we’re putting it off for now. Let’s discuss it later. These are the main outlines of the decision on the Minsk II agreement. The Minsk I and II agreements were signed between Ukraine and Russia in 2014 and 2015. Intended to end the conflict that began in 2014, they included military and political steps that were never implemented by Moscow. Today, the accords are widely seen in Ukraine as paving the way for Russia’s full-scale invasion in February 2022. “There will be no Minsk III,” as Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky succinctly put it last November.

Chomsky’s criticism of US foreign policy is not limited to Ukraine. Just as Washington provoked Russia with NATO expansion, it is also “openly provoking China” over Taiwan, he tells me. “The US is pursuing a program… to surround China with a ring of control states armed with advanced precision weapons aimed at China,” an apparent reference to US defense cooperation with countries such as Japan, South Korea and Australia.

“What is the threat from China at this point?” Chomsky asks me. “The threat comes from the US and of course Britain follows. [The UK] is just a lackey at this point. It is no longer an independent country.” While acknowledging that China is “not a nice country” and violating international law in the South China Sea, he says that “the talk of [war over] Taiwan comes from the West”. Beijing, which views Taiwan as its territory, has not ruled out an invasion and regularly holds military exercises that simulate a blockade of the self-ruled island.

Reflecting on our conversation, I came across a passage in an essay from Chomsky’s 1970 book. At war with Asia. “As long as an American occupation army remains in Vietnam, the war will continue,” he wrote. “Withdrawal of American troops must be a unilateral act because the invasion of Vietnam by the American government was a unilateral act in the first place. Those who called for “negotiations now” were fooling themselves and others. Those words seem more applicable to the war in Ukraine than anything Noam Chomsky said during our conversation 53 years later.

[See also: How long will the war in Ukraine go on for?]

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